Im kind of a monster, in a way, offers Shirley Manson, cradling a pint of lager. I enjoy the grind. I think Ive missed one show in my entire career. Im just a maniac. I dont know if thats a good thing or a bad thing

Manson has been the lead singer of the alt-rock group Garbage since 1993, snarling, kicking, and wailing her way to 17 million records sold and even a Bond theme. Now, the band she formed with legendary Nirvana producer Butch Vig and Co. is back with their sixth studio album, Strange Little Birdsa melancholic and cinematic sonic journey thats garnering some of the best reviews of the Madison, Wisconsin, groups career.

The outspoken and affable Scot, whose striking red hair is now pink, sat down with me at a hotel bar in downtown Manhattan to discuss her thorny path from the bullied daughter of a Sunday school teacher in her native country to one of rock n rolls most badass leading ladies.

Well, this is exciting. Your groups sixth album is receiving some of the best reviews of the bands career.

Its really exciting. I have to say, its sort of nuts. I never expected it, you know? Im a Scottish fatalist, so I always expect were going to meet a cruel, hard, icy, cold wall. So it was spectacularly shocking. In the 90s, it felt like it was easier to release a record and get some attention, and now it seems very difficult. Theres so much noise.

There is so much noise. It seems like the music industry has become a lot less democraticthat a handful of acts seem to control so much of the conversation. Its the 99 percent versus the 1 percent.

Thats exactly what it feels like to me. And they get bigger and bigger and bigger. Its like a hot air balloon where they just get pumped up ever more in our face, and its getting harder and harder for subcultures to have a voice. Thats not how I grew up. I grew up in the 70s, essentially, and there were so many subcultures that had powerful voices, and now I feel thats impossible. Its all becoming very Orwellian and homogenized. Were all listening to the same records, dressing the same. Its troubling. At the same time, I think were getting more and more divisive as a society, whereas in music, funnily enough, everythings getting more centralized. I guess its about trying to survive, so media outlets just want to cover the big acts to get the clicks. They also have to answer to corporate interests. Its all about money. People are so obsessed with labeling things as successful and unsuccessful, and thats just not how I look at the world. There are so many records Im obsessed by that influenced me and changed my life that nobodys ever heard of. To me, they are heroes.

What are some of those bands, or records?

Im thinking of the Scottish bands I grew up with, like The Shop Assistants, The Fire Engines, Hey! Elasticaall these underground bands that nobodys ever heard of but they made records that changed my life. So are they successful or unsuccessful? To me, theyre successful because they made records that touched peoples lives. Now, it seems things are being put up against a ridiculous measuring stick.

On Strange Little Birds, the title comes up on one of the albums best tracks, Even Though Our Love Is Doomed. To me, the titular strange little birds seemed like that scene you paint on the song Empty where youre wandering down streets and see a sea of smiling, vacant faces.

Well, youre bang-on. I think its pretty much humanity, reallyhow we all look at each other, were all judging each other, and were all thinking, Oh, that persons a freak because they dont do things the way I do. Our feelings towards one another in the world are becoming more and more exacerbated by that sense. I felt it was a general headline for our record. I think everybodys weird other than myself, and I dont think Im alone in feeling that way.

As far as weirdness goes, there was a lot of tension in the band after Bleed Like Me and a fairly lengthy hiatus before your 2012 album Not Your Kind of People. How did the group overcome that?

Fuck knows! Just put one foot in front of the other and hope for the best. I think there are a lot of reasons for it, though. We have discovered, as people, that we do not do well under a major label because were not willing to make the compromises that major labels require. I get itthey have corporate interests and are trying to make moneybut we have realized that were not their Huckleberrys. Were polite, but defiant, and we did not want to be told what to do or make the compromises they wanted us to make.

What sort of suggestions was your label making?

They had suggestions of us working with different artistsin particular hip-hop artists, and we love hip-hop but it had nothing to do where we were coming from musically. It just seemed so phony and calculated, and people were already suspicious of us being a calculated band during the best of times. It felt so forced and silly. This was around 2005.

Ah, so in the wake of the Jay Z/Linkin Park album.

Yeah, around then. And I get itthere were a lot of bands that did it, and were successful at it. But it just felt wrong. So, we had problems with our company and then that caused problems amongst ourselves, because everybodys blaming themselvesand each otherfor the perceived failure of the band. It causes a lot of tension. Everybody had their own idea of how to save the band, but I think when we went our separate ways, we all just got frustrated with not being able to make music together.

It seems like you gave a different part of yourself to Strange Little Birds. There is a softness and vulnerability in your voice that I think was more masked on past albums.

I think I just got to the point where I felt I had nothing to lose. No fucks given. Its come to that point where I can only be what I am, and I have to focus on what I can do. Once I figured that outI dont have to be young, I dont have to be pretty, I dont have to be sexy, I dont have to be wearing a bikini in a video shootwhen I really came to terms with all that and realized that all I had to do was do good work, then yeah, no fucks were given. What do I have to lose? Im here for such a short time that I might as well tell the truth.

With frontwomen in bands, there can beand a lot of this is the medias faulta lot of focus and objectification of the frontwoman, and then it becomes less about music and more about image. Did you feel like that happened to you? That the powers that be were digging their talons into you in that respect?

Yeah. A lot was made of how I looked, and I have a big personalitythe rest of my band are quiet and theyre not like me. So I became the focus because Im the one whos willing to communicate, and then it began to fuck with my head because I got all this attention. I thought, Im not pretty enough, Im not young enough, Im not this enough, Im not that enough, Im not as cool as she is, Im not as hard as he is. It began to really fuck with me. Luckily for me I fell in love with amazing frontwomen. Ive followed Patti Smith from day one, Chrissie Hynde, Marianne Faithfullall of these women who continue to be active in music and have managed to escape the cage of objectification. I was taught by them, and so once I figured that out I realized I could remove myself from those expectations, because how people choose to objectify me is one thing, but I dont have to take on that mantle. Once I figured that out, I was free.

Are there any moments you remember vividly where you thought, This has gone too far.

Oh, there are countless amounts of moments, including post photo shoots my hairs been colored a different color at the request of some fucking dude. Somebody thought it was OK to tamper with my image because Im just an object. But the moment that changed things for me was I went to a Louise Bourgeois exhibition at the Tate in London. It was a retrospective and Id never heard of her because Im uneducated in fine art, but I saw this work by this woman who at the time was 93 years old and still working and holding artistic salons at her apartment in New York. She was this wrinkled, wizened old lady and I thought, I can do that. I can keep making music until Im dead, and whos to tell me otherwise? I can release myself from all the expectations of the record industry and peoples fucked up ideas of what success is. I can make those measuring sticks disappear. That was a really empowering moment for me.

There was a point though, around 2008, when you almost turned your back on music.

I thought I had to because I was no longer young. I was no longer the hot, zeitgeist girl, or the girl who was getting put on the front cover of every magazine. I genuinely thought, Oh, Im done. I remember telling people, Im done, and theyd say, Youre not done! You still have so much to say, and Id go, No, people dont care if I have something to say. They just want somebody young and pretty. They want the newest thing. In some regards Im right, but theres a whole other side to the equation where Im completely wrong. I go back to that Louise Bourgeois exhibition where I realized I could design my own career outside of the mainstreams idea of what a successful career in music is.

There was also I read a moment where you performed Bowies Life on Mars? at the funeral for a friends child that changed your outlook on music.

Their childs memorial, yes. Friends of mine lost their 6-year-old son, Pablo, and I was invited to sing Pablos favorite song at the funeral. Butch [Vig] was there and we hadnt spoken or seen each other in a while, and that was the catalyst for getting the band back to the same place. Death changes everything. Losing my Mom changed everything. Divorcing my first husband changed everything. Loss is the most profound change.

Bowie, man. Its been a crazy year in music.

Its been an awful year, and it just seems to continue. I dont know what the hell is going on.

Crazy year in general. Youve lived in L.A. for about a decade now. How has the American life changed your perspective on things?

It has completely changed my view on world affairs, one being the historical generosity of America towards immigrants, and its sad to see somebody [Trump] whos trying their damnedest to eradicate that.

Its happening in the UK too, though. Brexit was very much about xenophobia and anti-immigration.

Absolutely. And its strange to me because it speaks to an incredible arrogance on peoples behalf. Throughout history, weve had massive moves of people across continents, so why do we think well be immune to that? I understand the idea of people that have no money, and theyre frightened, and they are being fed really hysterical rhetoric about immigrants, and the newspapers blow up the one incident where an immigrant does something outrageous and violent and scary, I understand why the people respond the way that they do. But I really think we need to look at history to learn from the mistakes we have made in the past, and also the great benefits of immigrants to each country in the world. Its lack of tolerance.

In America too, it seems like Donald Trump has manipulated many poor, angry white people into getting hysterical about immigrants. And hes got Scottish roots!

Dont say that! Fuck. Hes been disowned by the Scots. He has been disowned by Scotland. They think its disgusting. The Scots stripped him of all kinds of things. Theyre horrified by himand rightfully so. I can deal with assholes, and people who have different opinions than me, but what bothers me about this man, who shall remain nameless, is hes put himself up for one of the most important statesmen in the world, and hes not taking his task seriously. He thinks hes playing a game with the media, but in fact hes playing with peoples lives. In L.A., you drive through Silver Lake, a relatively posh, affluent neighborhood, and people are living under the bridges in cardboard boxes. Its those people hes disrespecting in not taking his mantle seriously. When youre disrespecting people across the board and clearly hate humanity hes very dangerous.

In the song Even Though Our Love Is Doomed, you mention that youre ready for a revolution. What would that revolution look like?

I dont know, but I was very excited when the Pope said we need a new world order. I think weve gotten to the absolute apex of worshipping money, and in my lifetime, never has there been a more chaotic, frightening time than right now.

Lets talk about the halcyon days, then. I read that you grew up as a bit of an outcast.

I was a redhead, Jesus Christ. You dont get much more despised than that. Its terrible in the UK. Theres now Julianne Moore, Jessica Chastain, and Lindsay Lohangod bless her. There werent any red-haired icons when I was growing up besides I Love Lucy, so you just grew up thinking youre ugly as sin.

What was it like growing up in Scotland?

It was awesome. I had an incredible schoolboth my schools were incredible. I was a pretty good student until I went to high school, and then I got bullied for a year and kind of went off the rails. I got bullied for being pale, a redhead, and coming from a nice middle-class family. My bully came from a very hard background, so she took it out on me. It got pretty bad. She got on my case to the point where I lost my temper one day when she was threatening to beat me up and said, Alright, outside at 3:30 well fuckin square off, and she never turned up and that was the end of it. But it went on for the longest time. This is the saddest thing ever, but I had these pink beads and a weird crucifixbecause I grew up in a religious householdand used to tie the beads to the crucifix and put a little not in it that said, Please God! Please do something about Louise!

But in a way perhaps it was a blessing, because great art is born from pain and suffering.

Everything great is born from pain. All truths come from pain. But I fell in with a crowd who loved music, and rolled for a while with a group of proper punk rockers, then I fell in with boys who had more sophisticated taste, and they introduced me to Patti Smith, The Clash, Bauhaus, and Adam and the Ants, and my whole world exploded at that point.

As far as contemporary female artists go, what are your thoughts on Taylor Swift?

Oh, I love Taylor Swift. Shes an accomplished musicianshe can play, she can writeshes smart, and shes never fallen back on anything other than her musical talent to progress. And as shes grown up, she literally looks like a supermodel. To me, shes more beautiful than half of the models in the magazines. Shes like a Terminator to me. Its so perfect that it induces a lot of anger and resentment in lots of women towards her. Im fascinated by how much people loathe her. I feel like I read a lot of shit talked about her by her contemporaries, and if I was her contemporary Id feel very grateful that heres a girl doing it pretty much on her own terms, shes not got a man behind her, shes done it really cleanly, and shes done it with intelligence. My 6-year-old niece is looking at her versus a lot of the other sloppy girls that are not putting on a good show.

Speaking of Taylor Swift, youre not a fan of Kanye, though. After he blasted Becks Album of the Year Grammy win you torched him online, claiming he was disrespecting artistry and making himself look like a complete twat.

I do like Kanye! I just happened to disagree with the message he was sending out, and I wanted to be a musician because it was free of all these clich measuring sticks. I just dont believe music should be judged in those terms. So what if youre the most popular artist in the world? It doesnt mean youre doing the best work in the world. Thats what I objected to. But I think hes a phenomenal musician. Hes a lightning rod and thats exciting, but it doesnt mean hes always right.

Im curious how you feel about female musicians today. I recently got into a conversation with a friend where we were discussing how we felt the crop of young female musicians were perhaps more badass in the early 90s, from En Vogue to Lilith Fair, than they are today.

And yet we have Rihanna, Beyonc, and Lady Gaga. To me, theyre phenomenal, exciting, and doing something very new. To me, Lemonade is a fuckin masterpiece. Oh my god, dont get me started. I feel in some ways weve evolved in that were seeing these great female pop stars in ways weve never seen before, like Rihanna, the way shes presented her sexuality is balls to the wall, unapologetic, and has her on completely equal footing as her male counterparts. Even Madonna, it came from playing with the idea of female sexuality rather than the reality of it.

I feel Madonna is treated very unfairly in the press. There doesnt seem to be proper reverence for Madonna, and every time she does something they pounce on her. Madonna is treading unfamiliar terrain in that shes the first boundary-pushing sexual pop star to reach this time in her career, and the media has acted very ageist towards her.

Its horrific, the way shes treated. People are almost disappointed that shes aged; she got caught being a human being. It has a lot to do with societys expectations of women and also highlights the inequality between male and female artists to this day. There are very few women willing to fight against the idea that beauty is the highest currency. Thats the problem: that women are scared to fight against that currency, to fight against that idea of, Does a woman have any worth past youth and beauty? I believe they do, and I will fight that idea until I die, but I think a lot of women feel they have to give up. I had that moment myself, where I felt Im done and that nobody was gonna give me a chance, but then I realized that you can use your brain and use your songwriting and be a good communicator and connect with people, and thats your fuckin job at the end of the daynot to be beautiful, or pretty, or have people want to fuck you. Who cares?